Le Forum Avions Piel, consacré aux Pierres Précieuses. Super Emeraude, Beryl, Saphir, CP80 etc

Avions Claude Piel, CP1315 CP1310 CP320 Super Emeraude, CP30 Emeraude, CP80, CP1320 Saphir, CP70 Beryl, CP60 Diamant, ML250 Rubis
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 Sujet du message: Hello
MessagePosté: Dim 06 Sep, 2009 2:37 am 
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Inscription: Dim 06 Sep, 2009 2:28 am
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Gentlemen, Hello. I am from the USA and it has been may years since I have written or spoken french, so if you will excuse me, I will use English as to not generate a misunderstanding. I have many happy hours teaching aerobatics in a CAP-10 years ago, and now finding myself looking for an aircraft to construct for myself and my family, I run across the Saphir and am struck. My questions are two-fold. 1. How does the flight characteristics of the CP1320 compare to the Cap-10 and 2. What is the difference (if any) between the plans offered from Canada (S.Littner) and those offered in France? Thank you for your help.

Brian Hoover


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 Sujet du message: Re: Hello
MessagePosté: Mar 08 Sep, 2009 10:18 am 
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Inscription: Mer 29 Juin, 2005 2:15 pm
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Hello Brian,

The webmaster will probably complete my post, but I try a first answer.

First, welcome to you.

The CP1320 Saphir and the CAP10B are quite different.

The CAP10 is directly derived from the family of the elliptical wingged CP.
The obvious filiation path is CP20 Pinocchio (single seater 25HP) -> CP30 Emeraude (two seater 65-90 HP) -> CP 1310 Super Emeraude (90-105 HP) -> CP100 (Almost the prototype of the CAP10) -> CAP10.
This family also includes tandem two seaters : CP70 Béryl (65-90 HP) and CP750 (160-180 HP) which is also named "Béryl". The latter is fully aerobatic and can easely compete with the CAP10

The CP1320 Saphir is a two seater (and a half - optional third place limited to 60 kg) derived from the CP80 single seater sport plane.
Even if the acceleration factor is +6/-3 at 700 kg, the Saphir is not design as an aerobatic airplane but as a retractable undercarriage fast cruiser.

According to my calculations, a full 3 seater or even a 4 seater could be derived from the CP1320, with 180 to 200 HP...
A full 3 seater Saphir powered by a diesel DeltaHawk 200 HP and a variable pitch propeller would cruise at :
- 360 km/h (194 kt) at FL 75 and 75% of rated power burning 31 litres (8.2 USgallon) of jet fuel per hour (27,28 Miles per US gallon)
- 325 km/h (175 kt) at FL 30 and 65% of rated power burning 26.5 litres (7.0 USgallon) of jet fuel per hour (28,85 Miles per US gallon)
To my sense, that are quite interesting figures...

As far as I know, the main difference between the plans offered from Canada and in France is the Language of comments.
I don't know if the units are converted from metric to imperial system.

Bons Vols

Philippe Dejean

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 Sujet du message: Re: Hello
MessagePosté: Jeu 10 Sep, 2009 9:21 pm 
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Inscription: Dim 06 Sep, 2009 2:28 am
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Thank you for the reply and for the information.
I believe I understand that the 1320 is more of a cross-country type airplane unlike the CAP10B which is optimized for aerobatics. My interest is in something that I can take out and turn upside-down and be able to take my wife and son on an outing in.

So, i guess that leaves the question how capable is the CP1320 in the realm of aerobatics as the CP320 does not have the 3rd seat option for non-aerobatic flight?

Thanks Again

Brian Hoover


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 Sujet du message: Re: Hello
MessagePosté: Ven 11 Sep, 2009 12:07 pm 
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Inscription: Mer 29 Juin, 2005 2:15 pm
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Hello Brian,

CE560XL a écrit:

I believe I understand that the 1320 is more of a cross-country type airplane unlike the CAP10B which is optimized for aerobatics.

Right !
However,
- The CP 1320 is a rugged airplane, (+6/-3 g @ 700 kg).
- The single seater sport plane CP80 from which the CP 1320 was derived was also designed for aerobatics (+8/-6 g).
- As almost all CP's, both CP80 and CP1320 share the same wing profile with the CAP10 (Naca 23012).
So I am quite confident that the CP 1320 could be rolled "upside down" if powered with an injected engie that is properly lubricated in all positions...

CE560XL a écrit:

My interest is in something that I can take out and turn upside-down and be able to take my wife and son on an outing in.


I think that you are not the only one that would like to fly cross country in a 3/4 seater, that could become readily an aerobatic two seater !

CE560XL a écrit:
So, i guess that leaves the question how capable is the CP1320 in the realm of aerobatics as the CP320 does not have the 3rd seat option for non-aerobatic flight?


Well... The CP320 itself does not have the 3rd seat option for non-aerobatic flight, but the CP60 Diamant or CP605/615 Super Diamant, derived from the CP320, does !

The Diamant and Super Diamant have mainy different versions with different wingspan and motors (as well as weight of course) :
Diamant the wingspan is extended from the CP320 to increase L/D ratio and landing performance
CP60 : 9.6m, 90 HP Continental
CP601 : 9.6m, 100 HP Rolls-Royce - Continental
CP602 : 9.6m, 105 HP Potez
CP603 : 9.6m, 115 HP Lycoming
CP604 : 9.6m, 145 HP Continental

Super Diamant the wingspan is reduced back from the Diamant to stengthen the wing
605 : 9.2 m, 150/160 HP Lycoming
606 : 9.2 m, 140 HP Lycoming
607 : 9.2 m, 130 HP Continental
608 : 9.2 m, 180 HP Lycoming

615 : 8.95m, 150/160 hp the wingspan is reduced again - not very far from the original Emeraude and CAP10B wingspan : 8.06m

605A and 615A are tricycle

To my sense, the problem is that the Super diamant and CP320 Super Emeraude are both officially limited to (+4.4/-1.76g).
One solution could be to fit a CAP10 C Wing on a Super diamant fuselage.

For more information, discussions, and perhaps a flight on a super diamant...
You could you contact Jean-Claude Meunier by private message on this site
He flies regularly the CP605 C-GUMM that he has built himself from Litner plans.
He lives in Quebec - Canada -

Bons Vols

Philippe Dejean

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Dernière édition par Philippe Dejean le Ven 11 Sep, 2009 12:13 pm, édité 1 fois.

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 Sujet du message: Re: Hello
MessagePosté: Ven 11 Sep, 2009 12:08 pm 
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Inscription: Mer 29 Juin, 2005 2:15 pm
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Hello Brian,

On the previous message, I wrote that the CP605 Super Diamant is limited to (+4.4/-1.76g).
This is true for the standard wing that is not completely covered by plywood.
Other versions of wings completely covered by plywood has already been made, and achieve much higher acceleration limitations.

Covering the plywood by a thin carbon fiber tissue can be a further improvement.

Bons Vols

Philippe Dejean

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